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wiezly · 10-31-2007, 02:18 PM

I'm not a religious person; maybe that's why I'm perplexed. Enforcing the Separation of Church and State is a recurring theme in courtrooms and front pages across the country and the rest of the civilized world. Commandments in courthouses, Intelligent Design in schools... it's a common argument. Yet the institution of marriage, which by-and-large is derived from religious tradition/doctrine and commonly ceremonially sanctified by various clergy, is not only legally subsidized by most governments (via tax breaks, automatic powers of attorney, legal entitlements to former spouses and so-on), but further dictated, controlled, and in many states, rigidly defined by the government. If religion and its practices are supposedly not to be forced down the throat of any citizen unwillingly, then why does any law or court have anything to do with who anyone chooses to marry or divorce, barring a disagreement on the distribution of assets or child custody/support obligation? Anyone? Oh I've done the marriage thing and the divorce thing. Twice. I'm intimately familiar with the process. In all likelihood, I'll wind up doing it again, because my current steady of 4 years doesn't share my opinion that it's none of the government's concern what vows we make or break, so long as we're in agreement to the terms of both the union and the (hopefully) hypothetical) separation; guess she's a bit more old fashioned, if not altogether religious, regarding marriage. My question isn't about the process, it's about the ethics of the government having anything to do with the process when there is no disagreement to be resolved, as was the case with my 2nd divorce - for which we still paid numerous filing fees, made multiple court appearances, and dealt with mounds of paperwork, so that our local government's stake in our union (which was probably all about tax and fee revenue anyway) could be satisfied. Your answers have for the most part been very informative. I thank each of you for the time you've taken. In the end, I suppose the governmental involvement in the legal marriage of two people has mostly been made necessary by the problems that have come up over time, and that a legal framework for marital status under which all parties can have their interests protected is probably a good thing, especially for the parties who's interests and rights may/have at some point be infringed upon. As to whether I will participate in the official, government-endorsed version of the practice ever again remains to be seen... I just can't abide having a matter so personal and (in the case of other people) religiously ordained presided over or governed in any way by a government that's already got its fingers in far too many cookie jars! Again, thank you all for your time.

Apsdydrr · 10-31-2007, 02:18 PM

you have to go to somebody to get the divorce papers signed. in some parts of japan when you get married you get marriage and divorce papers & same time, you marriage takes effect 1 year after the vows are said in case you think you made a mistake. it cost $ one thousand for them.my sister went to japan for her stepsons wedding.

PapaJoe · 10-31-2007, 02:18 PM

Because to the government, marriage is a legally binding contract. You are over-thinking this a little bit, my friend.

V.Putin · 10-31-2007, 02:18 PM

One does not have to go to a religious institution to get married. A judge can marry people. A "legal" marriage is not something a church does, it is the state when paperwork is processed. If the paperwork is not turned in the religious aspect of it does not matter.

Why give tax breaks to someone who gives charity, for house interest payments, student loans, etc.. Because the government ("run by the people") thinks it is best for society. The government believes marriage is good for society (it encourages children, stability, good standing, etc..).

Apsdydrr · 10-31-2007, 02:18 PM

Not every marriage is legal in the U.S. Most states, however, recognize religious marriages that occur due to religious practices, of course, I should point out that there is a line in stating you were following your practices. Regardless; you would still be required (at least in Michigan, where I am located) to apply for the marriage license and have your wedding legally recorded with the courts. I suppose the debate on this will continue for eons, but it has become increasingly necessary to have a record of marriage in order to grant divorce, support, custody... and also a record of marriage is necessary for insurance reasons as well. I could get into all the philosphical reasons for court involvement, but I just don't have the time.. :) I should also state, that Common Law marriages used to be the main form of marriage-- but technology and transportation has changed all that. When citizens couldn't make the 50 mile trip to a court house for a marriage license, they could just cohabitate and present themselves as a married couple, and that was sufficient. However, with the increasing divorce rate coupled with the properperity that must be divided between the couple, a record of marriage has become necessary in order to keep justice and equity.

I've included a little insert from Michigan's law on marriages of different denominations:
Michigan Compiled Laws, 551.17 Denominational modes of solemnization; effect of chapter.

The preceding provisions of this chapter, so far as they relate to the manner of solemnizing marriages, shall not affect marriages among the people called Friends or Quakers; nor marriages among people of any other particular denomination, having, as such, any peculiar mode of solemnizing marriages; but such marriages may be solemnized in the manner heretofore used and practiced in their respective societies or denominations.

taxguru · 10-31-2007, 02:18 PM

You are confusing state and religion marriage "laws". The state has marriage laws and each religion has their own marriage laws. Did you know you could get married in many religions without being considered "married" under state law? The government isn't mixing religion with state when it comes to the legality of marriage. A state marriage is legal and a solely religious marriage (with no state certifications and/or licenses) is not legal.

You have always had the choice to get married only in the church and not the state. The state must get involved in marriages for the health, safety and welfare of its citizens - including allocating government benefits and promoting the "family unit" to ad cohesion to the community.

Many bigamists get "married" (although it is not a legal state recognized marriage) in their church. They are not criminal bigamists because they are not legally married - only spiritually.

You had a choice, and for whatever reason you choose to get "married" by the State and not get "married" in a religious-only non-legal marriage ceremony by you religion.

10-31-2007, 02:18 PM	#1
wiezly Greenhorn Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 30 Rep Power: 6	Why Is Any Marriage Legal? I'm not a religious person; maybe that's why I'm perplexed.<br /><br />Enforcing the Separation of Church and State is a recurring theme in courtrooms and front pages across the country and the rest of the civilized world. Commandments in courthouses, Intelligent Design in schools... it's a common argument.<br /><br />Yet the institution of marriage, which by-and-large is derived from religious tradition/doctrine and commonly ceremonially sanctified by various clergy, is not only legally subsidized by most governments (via tax breaks, automatic powers of attorney, legal entitlements to former spouses and so-on), but further dictated, controlled, and in many states, rigidly defined by the government.<br /><br />If religion and its practices are supposedly not to be forced down the throat of any citizen unwillingly, then why does any law or court have anything to do with who anyone chooses to marry or divorce, barring a disagreement on the distribution of assets or child custody/support obligation?<br /><br />Anyone?<br />Oh I've done the marriage thing and the divorce thing. Twice. I'm intimately familiar with the process. In all likelihood, I'll wind up doing it again, because my current steady of 4 years doesn't share my opinion that it's none of the government's concern what vows we make or break, so long as we're in agreement to the terms of both the union and the (hopefully) hypothetical) separation; guess she's a bit more old fashioned, if not altogether religious, regarding marriage.<br /><br />My question isn't about the process, it's about the ethics of the government having anything to do with the process when there is no disagreement to be resolved, as was the case with my 2nd divorce - for which we still paid numerous filing fees, made multiple court appearances, and dealt with mounds of paperwork, so that our local government's stake in our union (which was probably all about tax and fee revenue anyway) could be satisfied.<br />Your answers have for the most part been very informative. I thank each of you for the time you've taken.<br /><br />In the end, I suppose the governmental involvement in the legal marriage of two people has mostly been made necessary by the problems that have come up over time, and that a legal framework for marital status under which all parties can have their interests protected is probably a good thing, especially for the parties who's interests and rights may/have at some point be infringed upon.<br /><br />As to whether I will participate in the official, government-endorsed version of the practice ever again remains to be seen... I just can't abide having a matter so personal and (in the case of other people) religiously ordained presided over or governed in any way by a government that's already got its fingers in far too many cookie jars!<br /><br />Again, thank you all for your time.<br />

10-31-2007, 02:18 PM	#2
Apsdydrr Greenhorn Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 33 Rep Power: 5	Why Is Any Marriage Legal? you have to go to somebody to get the divorce papers signed. in some parts of japan when you get married you get marriage and divorce papers & same time, you marriage takes effect 1 year after the vows are said in case you think you made a mistake. it cost $ one thousand for them.my sister went to japan for her stepsons wedding.

10-31-2007, 02:18 PM	#3
PapaJoe Greenhorn Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 32 Rep Power: 6	Why Is Any Marriage Legal? Because to the government, marriage is a legally binding contract. You are over-thinking this a little bit, my friend.

10-31-2007, 02:18 PM	#4
V.Putin Greenhorn Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 16 Rep Power: 0	Why Is Any Marriage Legal? One does not have to go to a religious institution to get married. A judge can marry people. A "legal" marriage is not something a church does, it is the state when paperwork is processed. If the paperwork is not turned in the religious aspect of it does not matter. Why give tax breaks to someone who gives charity, for house interest payments, student loans, etc.. Because the government ("run by the people") thinks it is best for society. The government believes marriage is good for society (it encourages children, stability, good standing, etc..).

10-31-2007, 02:18 PM	#5
Apsdydrr Greenhorn Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 33 Rep Power: 5	Why Is Any Marriage Legal? Not every marriage is legal in the U.S. Most states, however, recognize religious marriages that occur due to religious practices, of course, I should point out that there is a line in stating you were following your practices. Regardless; you would still be required (at least in Michigan, where I am located) to apply for the marriage license and have your wedding legally recorded with the courts. I suppose the debate on this will continue for eons, but it has become increasingly necessary to have a record of marriage in order to grant divorce, support, custody... and also a record of marriage is necessary for insurance reasons as well. I could get into all the philosphical reasons for court involvement, but I just don't have the time.. :) I should also state, that Common Law marriages used to be the main form of marriage-- but technology and transportation has changed all that. When citizens couldn't make the 50 mile trip to a court house for a marriage license, they could just cohabitate and present themselves as a married couple, and that was sufficient. However, with the increasing divorce rate coupled with the properperity that must be divided between the couple, a record of marriage has become necessary in order to keep justice and equity. I've included a little insert from Michigan's law on marriages of different denominations: Michigan Compiled Laws, 551.17 Denominational modes of solemnization; effect of chapter. The preceding provisions of this chapter, so far as they relate to the manner of solemnizing marriages, shall not affect marriages among the people called Friends or Quakers; nor marriages among people of any other particular denomination, having, as such, any peculiar mode of solemnizing marriages; but such marriages may be solemnized in the manner heretofore used and practiced in their respective societies or denominations.

10-31-2007, 02:18 PM	#6
taxguru Greenhorn Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 29 Rep Power: 6	Why Is Any Marriage Legal? You are confusing state and religion marriage "laws". The state has marriage laws and each religion has their own marriage laws. Did you know you could get married in many religions without being considered "married" under state law? The government isn't mixing religion with state when it comes to the legality of marriage. A state marriage is legal and a solely religious marriage (with no state certifications and/or licenses) is not legal. You have always had the choice to get married only in the church and not the state. The state must get involved in marriages for the health, safety and welfare of its citizens - including allocating government benefits and promoting the "family unit" to ad cohesion to the community. Many bigamists get "married" (although it is not a legal state recognized marriage) in their church. They are not criminal bigamists because they are not legally married - only spiritually. You had a choice, and for whatever reason you choose to get "married" by the State and not get "married" in a religious-only non-legal marriage ceremony by you religion.

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